Curse

A Rose In The Rain · Jun 02, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

basically we just sat in a 26minute match against 2sins,3monk, 1 icy shackles, 1 bsurge,1 ineptitude splitter.

we were 3wars 1 ranger 1 nec.

their basic split was either 2sins and mo or 2 sins mes and mo. basically what would have been the best split for us to use to try counter this.

floor · Jun 02, 2011, 12:17 PM // 12:17

if they have a monk on split, its presumably their flag runner. Staying ahead on flags is important. Do not get behind, and make sure u have a backup flag at the stand 24/7. This forces them to either run on an offensive character, so they cant kill u. Or their split monk has to go back and run the flag rendering their 2 assassins useless vs ur base defending necro + rit. (necro is gna degen out the sins!)

Your Rit and Necro should be able to hold a duel assassin split no problem at all by turtling inside the lord pit, provided they do not have support from their flagger monk which would allow them to tank knights and push onto ur rit. Getting rid of the split monk we just addressed above.

This leaves you with 3 warriors (hopefully hammers) and a ranger at the main team, with 2 monks. It would obviously be very productive now for ur ranger to d shot bsurge, or at least shut down some of the water hexes. Your ranger should NOT be trying to camp monk elites when there is so much defence that needs to be taken out as a priority. D shotting RC will be useless if ur frontline are permanently blind.... Ur monks also need to play extremely offensively, making a real effort to clean ur warriors INSTANTLY. They should be cleaning every blind and weakness off ur frontline within a couple of seconds. They also need to try and remove hexes as best they can, although this largely depends on the effectiveness of ur rangers shutdown, as the ele can spam more hexes than monks have hex removals.

Once you have established this, u probably need to have 1 hammer camping the water ele or bsurge, depends which one the ranger cannot successfully shutdown (this reduces the amount it spams, so ur frontline is generally cleaner) and then 1 hammer on each of the 2 monks. Then stomp them till they die. If the opposite team is running a monk flagger, they have sacrificed party heals and weapons, so they will always die after a couple of minutes provided ur monks are cleaning ur frontline effectively.

This is my opinion on what i would do, and im sure others would have different opinions.
But my own thoughts are that with the build ur playing, its not necessarily easy to collapse and kill the sins, so i think its best to just contain the split with ur rit and necro. Double/triple/quad run flags using ur warriors + push their flag with ur ranger. Once u are ahead on flags, stomp them into the ground.

(my idea is based around u having at least 2 hammers, if not 3. if you dont have at least 2 hammer warriors, ur basically running a bad build as axes/swords are just much less effective in a triple melee setting)

TL;DR: Clean ur frontline, power run flags, contain split, kill them at main team through kd chains and poison spam, with a split monk flagger they have limited party heal options. Then Push to their base and dont let them re split. game over

3 melee is a flag pushing build, do not expect to just kill people in 8v8. Push flags and stomp monks until u win.

xhappy feetx · Jun 02, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I really hate posts like this.

There is no "static" reactionary split to anything, you have to take into account what map you are playing on, who the players you have are, what your tactic for winning the match is (Lord Damage or Lord Kill).

In your specific situation, I would've told your team to send your runner and prot back once they split the 2 sins and monk, and when the mesmer goes with them your necro should follow. At the main team, your tactic should be dual run flags with melee characters until you are way up and then just run into their base and starting hitting NPCs and their guildlord, you have the ability to do this because a Bsurge and Icy Shackles is not enough of a kill threat to stop you from doing so, and you will win the game on lord damage as long as your defense team is not giving up NPCs.

Killed u man · Jun 02, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

What happy said. You can't throw textbook tactics out there and expect them to work. They always assume the battlefield is static (You'll ALWAYS run into that exact build with that exact split) and the enemy is stupid. (And won't adept)

One of the key-ingredients to improving at GvG (tactics, not micro) is observing the matches you've lost and understand why you lost them. This is why I've always find it funny you can't save your match replays somehow (Which every competitive game has the option to) so you could send them to more experienced people to tell you why exactly it is you've lost.

Anyways: alot of people, and by that I mean almost everyone nowadays, tend to be lazy and won't observe the matches they lost (because of tactical mistakes), but rather instead post on forums asking for advice to "beating xx build/guild", QQ about nerfs or even blame individual people on their team who might not even have been the cause for the loss. ("Blame the monks" was a well known joke within the PvP-community) This, along with many obvious other factors, is why the top tier, in general (there is exceptions) has become so bad, because people haven't got a clue what they're doing and simply try and hard-counter everything.

What you should do is observe the matches first and try and understand why it is you've lost. It's not because "they're running split and we're running balanced", you should be able to pinpoint mistakes made by people, or tactical misteps. If you can't find any, then you simply aren't ready to improve yet, because you don't understand how the game works enough yet.

Essentially, asking someone to "tell you how to beat it" will only be usefull as long as your enemy keeps doing the same thing. The second they change their strategy, you'll find yourself comming on these forums again asking for advice. Though, I'm not saying asking for advice is a bad thing, but it is clear that your guild is just running a brainless trip melee (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and your primary goal shouldn't be beating people, it should be improving.

As the old expression goes:

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.”

A Rose In The Rain · Jun 02, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

All i was asking is what would have been the best option to counter their split as in defence /offence wise. i do realise that their is different situations etc but it was more of a general input question of what people would have sent back to defend their split. but i really do appreciate the input =]

ErrantVenture · Jun 02, 2011, 01:46 PM // 13:46

I'm a big fan of countering splits with damage/snares so I'd be more likely to counter with flagger + nec first and only send prot back if it's absolutely needed. Other than that Happy's got it right on. Double run flags with warriors while your nec + rit are in base until you're way up on flags, than push the base hardcore because there's no real damage (just water + bsurge) to kill you. If they collapse damage back to their base, sit tight if you've wiped the pit or fall back to stand and wait for them to resplit if you haven't.

Killed u man · Jun 02, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Rose In The Rain

All i was asking is what would have been the best option to counter their split as in defence /offence wise. i do realise that their is different situations etc but it was more of a general input question of what people would have sent back to defend their split. but i really do appreciate the input =]

Well, it depends on the sins bars, on the Monk's bars, on what you have on your necro, how well your players are, etc. I've played GvG's where I send a Ranger back to defend against a sin and the ranger died.

What other people would do shouldn't be of much use to you, it's the why other people would do it that's interesting.

Essentially, what you'll want to be doing is win the game. In order to win the game, you'll either need to lord it (offensively) or get more lord damage (defensively). Both options are viable and require a different playstyle, but you should always keep in the back of your mind that you have got to pick one of these from the start.

So what you'll want to be doing is relative as to what you want to achieve. Do you want to drag on the match for 28 minutes and win on lord damage, which plays in your advantage because you got 3 big DPS character as opposed to 2 sins and a couple of eles, or you want to keep just enough defence back to stay alive so you can push hard and lord it before they will.

You also need to know how good your players are. If you have 2 trash monks, they'll wipe to 2 sins and a fire ele who coordinate a bit. If your Monks are decent, they'll easily stay alive. So if you know your backline is terrible, you obviously don't put the intire match on their shoulders.